Here’s what Brian Armstrong says about Amyraut and lapsarian speculations:
John Quick reports what the Amyraldian party said before a French Synod (probably Alencon) this way:
If one wants to understand what Amyraut said about the decrees and their ordering, don't consult unreliable secondary sources that perpetuate a mythological Amyraut instead of the authentic Amyraut. Since there is only one of his works translated into english (his Brief Treatise on Predestination translated by Richard Lum in 1985 in partial fulfillment of his doctoral degree at Dallas Theological Seminary), he is severely misunderstood and misrepresented. If one wishes to research the man and his thought, consult those that have dealt with the primary sources and cite them carefully.
Incidentally, R. L. Dabney and Herman Bavinck are other examples of Reformed men who have been critical of the tendency to speculate about the order of the decrees. Both of them rejected lapsarianism.
See the following posts for more about Amyraut's views:
Nicole Quoting Quick
Paul Testard's Dualism
These two posts should help to dispel the myth that Amyraut argued that Christ died for all equally, without any qualifications. Too many are eager to erect this straw man in their arguments. On the contrary, Amyaut taught that the death of Christ was equally for all, but that Christ died unequally for all. In other words, there is no limitation in the death itself or the imputation of sin to Christ (it's equally sufficient to save all sinners), but there is a limit in Christ's intentions in suffering such an all-sufficient death. He wholeheartedly affirmed the classic understanding of Christ suffering sufficiently for all (the general intent), but especially for the elect (which is the special intent).
If someone wants to call you an "Amyraldian" for holding a dualistic view, ask them why they are not calling you a "Calvinist." After all, Amyraut was echoing Calvin's views regarding Christ's satisfaction. Here's the dirty little secret: They are calling you an "Amyraldian" because they aren't even interpreting Calvin correctly and they want to alienate you from Reformed/Calvinistic circles. Instead of engaging Calvin's own categories as presented in the primary sources, they just tell you to consult their "experts." When someone calls me an Amyraldian, I just say "I am an Amyraldian in so far as he agrees with Calvin." :-) Or, I could say, "I am an Amyraldian in so far as he agrees with Calvin, Musculus, Bullinger, Zwingli, Ursinus, Ussher, Cameron, Davenant, Polhill, Baxter, Martinius, Calamy, Vines, Seaman, Arrowsmith, Preston, Watts, Marshall, Howe, Bunyan, Ryle, Dabney, Shedd, C. Hodge, Kuiper..." and on and on it goes. I might also add EVERY OTHER CHRISTIAN THAT LIVED PRIOR TO BEZA, with the exception of Gottschalk.
One of Amyraut’s favorite criticisms of orthodox theologians was of their metaphysical speculations, which he apparently felt resulted from their methodology. He was fond of emphasizing Calvin’s principle that God’s essence is incomprehensible for rational man, that “Men who . . . resolve to seek out what God is are but merely amusing themselves with insipid speculation.” In particular, Calvin cautioned that this principle must be applied in any consideration of the decree of election; it can be a source of consolation only if man begins with faith rather than the counsel of God. He says:Brian Armstrong, Calvinism and the Amyraut Heresy (Eugene, OR: Wipf and Stock Publishers, 2004), 162–164.
The election of God will be a fatal labyrinth for anyone who does not follow the clear road of faith. Thus, so that we may be confident of remission of sins, so that our consciences may rest in full confidence of eternal life, so that we may boldly call God our Father, under no circumstances must we begin by asking what God decreed concerning us before the world began. Rather we must begin by seeking what through His paternal love He has revealed to us through the Gospel. We must seek nothing more profound than that we become the sons of God.Amyraut considered the orthodox doctrine of predestination, with all its speculation about the order of God’s decrees, an outright denial of this principle, and constantly called on Calvin in his desire to correct this orthodox tendency. Concerning the ordering of the decrees he makes the following incisive judgment:
... I am well aware that Calvin has said many things relating to the "impulsive" causes of the decrees of God, but as to their order I do not see that he has ever said a word. Why God has created man for hope of perpetual blessedness, he states that the only reason for this is His goodness. Why, man having fallen into sin and condemnation, God willed to send His son into the world to redeem men by His death, Calvin states that the only reason for this is an admirable love of God for mankind. Why He has elected some and passed by others in imparting the grace of faith, Calvin states that the only reason for this is the mercy and severity of God. Why God has preferred one individual to another in the distribution of this grace, Calvin does not recognize any other reason than solely the perfectly free will of God. Why He has willed to save believers and to condemn unbelievers unto eternal punishment, Calvin has thought that the reason for the latter must be taken from the justice of God whereas the reason for the former must be taken from His mercy...But what has been the order according to which God has arranged all these things in His eternal wisdom, when it is a question of His having proposed of thinking or willing what comes first or last, Calvin has never explained this nor has he the least interest in doing so.Amyraut goes on to say that this order in the decrees is a matter in which the "secrets are so profound, and the abyss so impossible to explore, that whoever will undertake to know them would necessarily be swallowed up by them or will necessarily remain eternally deluded as being in a completely inexplicable labyrinth." Nor, he continues, has the Spirit of God furnished and light on this matter in the Word.
John Quick reports what the Amyraldian party said before a French Synod (probably Alencon) this way:
2) As to making distinct decrees in the council of God, the first of which is to save all men, through Jesus Christ, if they shall believe in him, the second to give faith unto some particular persons, Amyraut, along with Testard, declared, that they did this upon no other account than of accommodating it unto that manner and order which the spirit of man observeth in his reasonings for the succour of his own infirmity; they otherwise believing, that though they considered this decree as diverse, yet it was formed in God in one and the self-same moment, without any succession of thought or order of priority and posteriority.John Quick, Synodicon in Gallia Reformata (London: Printed for T. Parkhurst and J. Robinson, 1692), 2:355.
If one wants to understand what Amyraut said about the decrees and their ordering, don't consult unreliable secondary sources that perpetuate a mythological Amyraut instead of the authentic Amyraut. Since there is only one of his works translated into english (his Brief Treatise on Predestination translated by Richard Lum in 1985 in partial fulfillment of his doctoral degree at Dallas Theological Seminary), he is severely misunderstood and misrepresented. If one wishes to research the man and his thought, consult those that have dealt with the primary sources and cite them carefully.
Incidentally, R. L. Dabney and Herman Bavinck are other examples of Reformed men who have been critical of the tendency to speculate about the order of the decrees. Both of them rejected lapsarianism.
See the following posts for more about Amyraut's views:
Nicole Quoting Quick
Paul Testard's Dualism
These two posts should help to dispel the myth that Amyraut argued that Christ died for all equally, without any qualifications. Too many are eager to erect this straw man in their arguments. On the contrary, Amyaut taught that the death of Christ was equally for all, but that Christ died unequally for all. In other words, there is no limitation in the death itself or the imputation of sin to Christ (it's equally sufficient to save all sinners), but there is a limit in Christ's intentions in suffering such an all-sufficient death. He wholeheartedly affirmed the classic understanding of Christ suffering sufficiently for all (the general intent), but especially for the elect (which is the special intent).
If someone wants to call you an "Amyraldian" for holding a dualistic view, ask them why they are not calling you a "Calvinist." After all, Amyraut was echoing Calvin's views regarding Christ's satisfaction. Here's the dirty little secret: They are calling you an "Amyraldian" because they aren't even interpreting Calvin correctly and they want to alienate you from Reformed/Calvinistic circles. Instead of engaging Calvin's own categories as presented in the primary sources, they just tell you to consult their "experts." When someone calls me an Amyraldian, I just say "I am an Amyraldian in so far as he agrees with Calvin." :-) Or, I could say, "I am an Amyraldian in so far as he agrees with Calvin, Musculus, Bullinger, Zwingli, Ursinus, Ussher, Cameron, Davenant, Polhill, Baxter, Martinius, Calamy, Vines, Seaman, Arrowsmith, Preston, Watts, Marshall, Howe, Bunyan, Ryle, Dabney, Shedd, C. Hodge, Kuiper..." and on and on it goes. I might also add EVERY OTHER CHRISTIAN THAT LIVED PRIOR TO BEZA, with the exception of Gottschalk.
8 comments:
By the way, if anyone is wondering if I've seen the post at Reformation Theology on Amyraut, I have. I even sent a reply last Friday (3rd of Nov.) or Saturday (4th of Nov.). It was either not allowed by the admins or it didn't enter properly. Here were my comments/questions for John after his post:
"1) What primary writings of Amyraut have you read? Have you read either Roger Nicole or Brian Armstrong's (or any other) doctoral dissertations that deal with the primary sources?
2) In what writing did Amyraut embrace a form of ordered decretalism or lapsarianism? What's your primary source information for that? Or do you just rely on what Warfield says?
3) In what writing did Amyraut reject the substitutionary nature of Christ's penal satisfaction? What's your primary source information for that? Or are you just relying on what Warfield says again for that point?
4) How does John 10:15 and 17:2, 9 demonstrate that the decree of election logically preceeds the decree to provide a satisfaction for sin? How do these verses prove any form of ordered decretalism (especially the view of Warfield's supralapsarianism)?
NKJ John 10:15 "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
NKJ John 17:2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
NKJ John 17:9 "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.
5) You assume that Amyraut thinks that God intended to give His Son to die equally for all. Amyraut didn't hold that view. Even Roger Nicole acknowledges that. Rather, Amyraut taught that the death of Christ was equally for all, but Christ died unequally for all. In other words, there was no limitation in the satisfaction itself, but there surely was a limitation in his intentions. Remember, Amyraut was a dualist who insisted on Calvin's distinction between God's revealed will and secret will. Thus, Amyraut thought that Christ's suffered sufficiently for all, but especially for the elect. That's even what Quick's Synodicon says about him. Amyraut would even agree with this statement of yours: "Christ died in a way for the elect (to procure effectual grace) that He did not for the non-elect."
6) The "four point Calvinism" term is loaded. It presupposes that the Owenic, or strictly limited view is the only geniunely Dortian viewpoint on "limited atonement." Amyraut was not a "four pointer" any more than orthodox preterists are "partial" preterists. He just located the limitation in God's special decree and in the Spirit's effectual application of Christ's work to the elect alone. There was no limit in the imputation of sin to Christ when he died, therefore it was really sufficient for all. By this means, Amyraut affirmed the classical formula sufficienter pro omnibus, efficaciter tantum pro electis."
Incidently, Gene Bridges made this comment over there:
"Baxter was also considered guilty of a holding a form of Amyraldianism that conflated justification and sancification."
Baxter did NOT get his neonomian views from Amyraut. Amyraut was sound on the doctrine of justification. Notice that Bridges gives no source for his claim. John gave no source for his claim that Amyraut denied the substitionary nature of Christ's penal satisfaction. That's an entirely false claim.
Once again, this demonstrates a failure to consult important works that deal with primary sources, even when it comes to the thought of Richard Baxter. If one wants to read about Baxter's views dealt with on a doctoral level, read Hans Boersma's book/dissertation A Hot Pepper Corn: Richard Baxter's Doctrine of Justification in Its Seventeenth-Century Context of Controvery (Regent, 2004), or J. I. Packer's book/dissertation The Redemption & Restoration of Man in the Thought of Richard Baxter (Regent, 2003). Or, for Amyraut's views on justification, one can consult Brian Armstong's book in Chapter 5. Consulting the above works is much better than relying on Theopedia.
The misinformation that is spread over the internet is truly amazing, especially when it comes under the veneer of theological sophistication.
Hi Tony,
I was going to e-mail you about that post to see if you had read it. I think you should attempt to re-post your above comments there. It would indeed be strange if the administrator wouldn't post them. I think you pose some important questions. It sure seems like Amyrault is in the Reformed doghouse. Obviously I'm not familiar with his works, but it does seem as though he is misrepresented or misunderstood by some, if not most, of the secondary sources.
I have interacted with both John and Gene in the comments thread of that post. What do you think about what John said regarding the "I" and the "L" in the 5 points being inseparable? Is the "hypothetical covenant" an accurate representation of Amyrault's views? What about his statements with regard to God's decretal and revealed wills?
Well, it seems like you've been hitting the books lately judging from your recent posts (no exception to the usual, I guess :-) I look forward to your comments. Thanks, brother...
G'day Jon,
Ive gone back and forth in my mind regarding whether or not I should reply to the stuff Gene, et al, have said over there. To be honest I find Gene's comments very frustrating and simply a lot of what he says regarding Amyraut, Baxter, and the issue over all, is just misleading.
There was quite a lot that he said that I believe is either wrong or can be fairly easily answered.
The other problem is that many of his arguments, assertions and "defeaters" only work on the assumption of his paradigm. On the terms of our paradigm they have no weight. When I see arguments like that I know that the proponent is really only speaking to the choir.
The reply to Martin shows me that his point was just missed and folk over there are not listening to the nuances being presented.
Given that Gene has clashed with me big time in recent history, its probably best that I dont respond over there.
Thus, this morning this is what I resolved to do. If you or anyone wishes to ask us anything in order to hear the other side of the debate present the case on their own terms, they are more than welcome to ask. They can either ask via this comments section, or email me or Tony directly, or ask on the C&C list.
I would encourage folk to try and get both sides of the question. I am fairly confident that most of what they claim is easily answered. This is not to say that we have removed all complexity. But most of what they have claimed is not that hard to deal with.
As a thought, be careful of what is often called exegesis. I see this a lot. High exegesis is more often like this: we have a verse which apparently at the prima facie level refutes our system. The system is seen as inviolable. An alternative exegesis is adopted, not on its proper exegetical merits, but because it is seen as not conflicting with the system.
The system-arguments are seen as so weighty that taking an interpretation that is not actually exetically derived must be adopted. So on critical verses its not because an interpretation is derived by positive exegesis, but on the basis of extra-textual theological considerations.
Anyway, please continue to ask questions, probe, read the primary sources and keep and open mind. :-)
ps, to cite theopedia as a source... oh my goodness... I am about to swoon... ;-)
Take care,
David
Hi Dave,
Are you sure Tony wants you and I to clog up his comments thread? Ha ha. I really think you guys should be heard on those posts because most of the time the common reader hasn't heard the other side from someone familiar with the opposing position. I don't know what's up between you and Gene, but since you are both Christians brotherly love between brethren who disagree should prevail, wouldn't you say? If you feel it is better to stay out of the discussion, I'm sure your reasoning is sprinkled with wisdom. It just seems like you and Tony are excluded from some of these discussions, and I don't understand it. If someone disagrees with you, they can address your argumentation. Anyway...
Sam Storms has a fairly balanced article on Amyraut under the Historical Theology heading on Monergism's web site. I thought it represented Amyraut's position (as I understand it) better than John Hendryx's post. If I knew how I'd put the link here, but I'm technologically challenged :-)
With regard to the inviolable theological system and exegesis, I agree. We have to let the text speak and not interpret it through a theological system we are convinced is true.
Let me just say in closing my comments that I highly esteem John over at Monergism.com and Gene Bridges, so please don't misconstrue any of my comments as indicating otherwise. I feel the same way about you and Tony. These disagreements that we have, well, they'll soon pass away, will they not?
--Jon Unyan
Oh, and Tony, you still owe me an e-mail on your eschatological position. That's just a reminder, I know you're busy :-D
G'day Jon
> Hi Dave,
>
> Are you sure Tony wants you and I to clog up his comments thread?
No not at all cos deep down he loves it when his hit metre jumps up.
(Sorry Tony, but I didnt even try and resist that one ;-)
> Ha ha. I really think you guys should be heard on those posts because
> most of the time the common reader hasn't heard the other side from
> someone familiar with the opposing position. I don't know what's up
> between you and Gene, but since you are both Christians brotherly
> love between brethren who disagree should prevail, wouldn't you say?
About 5 years ago I tried posting some of my initial findings on the RB list. It didnt go down well. I was not prepared for the sort of responses I was getting from some key posters. I didnt handle myself very well(I was being personally attacked on and off list). That original spat created a lot of bad blood and tension. To my knowledge, tho, I had never even known Gene then. Then within a year (maybe more) Gene posted and I questioned some of the things he said. I had no knowledge of his attitude toward me. I didnt know him from Adam. The conversation was fairly neutral. I dont recall any hint of hostility. Then his private letter appeared in recent history. My personal interaction with him on that letter didnt communicate to me that there was a willingness to reconcile on proper terms. All I saw from the letter was absolute disdain.
In the recent posts on that blog, all I am seeing right now is a triumphalist demeanour that the case is closed. I dont read them as really wishing to entertain a contrary opinion right now. I dont see them as at that place where their own assumptions are open to examination. Thats fine. I am not saying that to be spiteful. I do think that I could show this quite easily by showing some of the comments posted over there.
But some of the theological assumptions are so odd. In the moderate view the whole Trinity is active in this. The whole Trinity elects, and the whole Trinity determines that the Son be sent to the world to seek its salvation by providing a provision of salvation for all. There is no conflicting desires between the persons of the Trinity. Nor are there any separation from the ontological roles of the Trinity. In terms of causality, the claims over there seem very confused. The expiation, or better, sacrifice of expiation, is never said in Scripture to purchase faith. The person making the expiation purchases people. The irony was the stress that Christ died for people, not for sin in abstraction (my paraphrase). But the same person will then turn around and say the atonement purchases things, when Scripture speaks only of people being purchased. But now, biblically, Scripture has Christ dying for sin and for people "Christ did not merely die for sins, He died for people": its not an either/or as one proposed over there (Jn 1:29, Heb 9:26, 1 Jn 1:2) and Amyraut would have been totally happy with both, Christ died for sin, sins and for sinners. The stuff about hypothetical covenant is unhelpful. Zwingli, Bullinger, and Calvin have the Covenant made and open to all mankind, as it its offer and conditional application. I think Amyraut's position is misunderstood here. Even Boston said that the administration of the NC is to all mankind.
No one says faith is granted apart from Christ. Legal obstacles only refers to the necessary condemnation from God's side, not the actual condemnation. I pulled together some crits and emailed them to Tony, I can send them you in email if you like.
> If you feel it is better to stay out of the discussion, I'm sure your
> reasoning is sprinkled with wisdom. It just seems like you and Tony
> are excluded from some of these discussions, and I don't understand
> it. If someone disagrees with you, they can address your
> argumentation. Anyway...
We are all too vested. The issue is too threatening. Take the last post for example. It says the TULIP stands or falls together. Thats actually just rhetoric. Its clear that Calvin and Luther both held to depravity, unconditional election, eternal security, irristable grace, etc, but both held that all men are redeemed (ie sufficient redemption), the expiation was for all sin and all sinners, Christ shed his blood for all men. But at no point was their system internally destablised by this. It didnt all fall apart. The same holds for so many others, like Bullinger, Zwingli, Haller, Thomas Adams, Dabney, Shedd, C Hodge, etc etc. Most of the problem we face is overcoming arguments like that which actually have no force, but are more rhetorical than substantive.
>
> Sam Storms has a fairly balanced article on Amyraut under the
> Historical Theology heading on Monergism's web site. I thought it
> represented Amyraut's position (as I understand it) better than John
> Hendryx's post. If I knew how I'd put the link here, but I'm
> technologically challenged :-)
If you can get the link please post it.
> With regard to the inviolable theological system and exegesis, I
> agree. We have to let the text speak and not interpret it through a
> theological system we are convinced is true.
One of the best examples of paradigmatically driven exegesis is Owens on 2 Pet 2:1. The classic way of reading that was to locate the redemption there in the sufficiency side of the old formula. For some reason folk--I can guess I suppose--that option is always ruled out. These men were redeemed, not just potentially, in the sense that the price was paid for them, and thereby the right of possession over them obtained.
> Let me just say in closing my comments that I highly esteem John over
> at Monergism.com and Gene Bridges, so please don't misconstrue any
> of my comments as indicating otherwise. I feel the same way about you
> and Tony. These disagreements that we have, well, they'll soon pass
> away, will they not?
Sure thats fine. Like I said, I had no idea that Gene had so much pent up hostility toward me. I have only had minimal contact with him before this. But for some reason, all this stuff is very threatening to some folk. If we could get past the rhetoric of do or die, shibboleth, orthodoxy versus heresy, we might be able to move forward, even if it is just to agree to disagree, but with better understanding. And I dont think I am being unfair in using those terms: cos Ive seen too much of it on the RB list (years ago) on Puritanboard, and in that letter and from individuals who are associated with Gene's circle. Speaking of the Puritanboard at Puritanboard.com I tried to work through Calvin, Shedd, Dabney and C Hodge in the Calvinism section if you are interested. I posted gobs of quotations. On the C&C list Ive also posted all the quotations from Calvin, Bullinger, Zwingli, Dabney et al under the header of New ______ Quotation The blank is the name of the person, eg Calvin.
Take care,
David
the last post as in at that blog site I mean.
Thanks for giving us that quote, Tony. Well done!
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