James White posted the following material on his website today:
My Response:
The Results of White's Systematic Eisegesis Seen
1) "One of the glorious truths of Scripture is that Jesus is not a hypothetical Savior, a mere wanna-be who fails with regularity."
In this first statement, White’s reactionary mentality is quickly seen. He describes the positions that differ from his own as positing a "hypothetical savior.” What’s the alternative? An actual savior? If so, who were actually saved when Christ died? Were all the elect saved when Christ died? If so, then we have salvation or justification prior to faith. If, on the other hand, Christ’s death does not save the elect when he died, does it therefore follow that it’s merely hypothetical? Of course not. Christ’s death saves when sinners appropriate it by faith. As Calvin said, "And the first thing to be attended to is, that so long as we are without Christ and separated from him, nothing which he suffered and did for the salvation of the human race is of the least benefit to us."
The Arminian error consists in thinking that man has the moral ability to believe, and thus Christ has no special, effectual and unconditional (unconditional in the sense of non-meritorious) intention to save the elect as the Calvinists think. One does not have to posit an exclusive intent in Christ to save the elect alone in order to refute the Arminian error.
Moderate Calvinists maintain that God has both a secret and revealed aspect to his will. While it is true that God wants all human beings to obey the external call in that he calls all to repent (the revealed or preceptive will), it does not follow that he has determined in his decree to grant moral ability to all men (the secret or decretal will). He does not owe mankind this ability. The Arminians, in their rationalistic error, see the revealed will as the only real will of God. James White, along with many other high Calvinists, collapse the revealed into the decretal such that the latter is the only real will. They think that the revealed will is merely dispositional and not an active principle that moves God to act to seek creaturely compliance. Thus, God only acts to seek the salvation of the elect alone in the high Calvinist system. This explains why White describes his opponents as holding that Christ is “a mere wanna-be savior who fails with regularity.” He thinks that the only real will involving active principles is the decretal.
2) "No, we proclaim a powerful Savior who perfectly does the will of the Father."
This statement demonstrates my point above, namely that he thinks the only real will of God is the decretal. He assumes that the Father cannot will that which does not come to pass. One might ask White, “Is it the will of the Father that you be thankful in all things according to 1 Thess. 5:18? If it is the will of God and he really desires your compliance to that commandment, then why are you not perfectly thankful in all things?” One does not have to deny a special, decretal intention in God as the non-Calvininsts do in order to see White’s systematic and biblical errors. God wills that we be thankful in all things and he actively seeks our compliance to that commandment according to the bible.
This is also the case with the commandment to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. God indescriminately commands all men to believe and repent through the external gospel call. Does he want all men to comply to the commandment or not? If he does not want all men to comply, then what does that entail with regard to the sincerity and goodness of God? Do we wish to implicitly charge the divine being with insincerity in his gospel appeals to all men? This is no small matter!
White denies that God in any sense wills the salvation of all mankind because he’s reacting to the Arminian position that God equally wills the salvation of all mankind. Calvin rightly maintained that God wills the salvation of all mankind (in the revealed will), but especially the elect (in the secret will). Dr. White is actually similar to the Arminians in his reactionary, rationalistic and lopsided thinking. Each party posits a rationalistic false dilemma, i.e. either the revealed will or the decretal will. Dr. White goes with the decretal as the real will and thus says the “Savior perfectly does the will (he identifies “will” with the decree) of the Father.”
3) "His death did not make the purchase of men from every tribe, tongue, people and nation possible, it actually accomplished that which the Triune Majesty intended."
This statement continues his lopsided system errors. He assumes that there would be disunity in the Godhead if it was the case that Christ intended to die for any other than the elect. The presupposition is that the other persons do not have a revealed or preceptive dimension to their will. Since the Father’s (and the Holy Spirit) real will is the decretal, the Son cannot will anything different. Dr. Curt Daniel addresses this argument in his History and Theology of Calvinism work. He wrote:
Also, what did Christ’s death “accomplish”? He doesn’t say. Were all the elect saved when he died? If not, were they potentially saved? What would White say about the elect’s relationship to the death of Christ prior to their faith? I don’t know. Apparently he doesn’t agree with (or hasn’t read?) Charles Hodge who said, “Those for whom it was specially rendered are not justified from eternity; they are not born in a justified state; they are by nature, or birth, the children of wrath even as others. To be the children of wrath is to be justly exposed to divine wrath. They remain in this state of exposure until they believe, and should they die (unless in infancy) before they believe they would inevitably perish notwithstanding the satisfaction made for their sins.”
As for the false dilemma between a “possible” atonement and White’s alternative strict view, see my post here:
The Design of the Atonement: Dealing with a Popular False Dilemma
He assumes that Christ’s death secures it’s own application because he has taken a literal interpretation of the purchase idea. Christ’s penal satisfaction is filtered through commercial or pecuniary debt payment categories. R. L. Dabney’s remarks are fitting here:
Here he collapses accomplishment into application, thus he fails to make a crucial biblical distinction. Atonement occurs when the satisfaction of Christ is appropriated by faith. The passage in the book of Revelation is clearly speaking of the believing elect who are in real union, and not of the elect as merely elect. This is a common equivocation fallacy in high Calvinist argumentation. White wants us to think this is an instance where world connotes “the elect.” First, the term “world” or “kosmos” is not even used in the passage. He simply imports it from his systematic grid (also borrowing bad arguments from Arthur Pink) and thinks he’s doing “exegesis.” Secondly, he wants us to think that Christ purchased all the elect as elect when he died. Does this passage say that? No. This passage says that Christ purchased believers from every tribe, tongue, people and nation. It does not say that he purchased all the elect as such at the time of this death. Also, even if it did say that he purchased all the elect as such, it still would not deductively follow that he purchased them alone according to this passage. One cannot deductively infer that he only dies for the elect from this bare positive idea that “he purchased the elect” any more than one can do that with statements about his dying for his sheep, church etc. R. L. Dabney makes this very point in his Systematic Theology text. Dabney wites, “That Christ says, He died "for His sheep," for "His Church," for "His friends," is not of itself conclusive. The proof of a proposition does not disprove its converse. All the force which we could properly attach to this class of passages is the probability arising from the frequent and emphatic repetition of this affirmative statement as to a definite object.” Also, White commits a straw man fallacy in thinking that his opponents "long for an atonement that does not atone." Actually, some of the authentic Calvinists who differ from him want to be faithful to the testimony of scripture and to proper reasoning.
If this passage defines what "world" means in the New Testament and the sense here is of believers, what does that make of sense of world in John 3:16? How would it look?
NKJ John 3:16 "For God so loved (believers) that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
This doesn't make any sense, thus White has to do a subtle shift and make "world" to mean elect as elect when it suits his system. He has to ignore a fundamental difference between decretal or mystical union and real union (he has committed this fallacy elsewhere). In fact, in John 17:9, he will follow Gill and the other ultra-Calvinists and interpret "world" to mean "the non-elect." Then, in John 17:21, "world" magically comes to mean "the elect as elect" again. How convenient, huh?
James White’s arguments are embarrassing and exegetically incompetent. It’s really sad to see someone with such influence in Calvinistic circles (particularly on the internet) make such blunders. Given the critique above, one can see the results of systematic eisegesis at work, not the work of genuine exegesis. Even apart from textual considerations, his logic is full of holes, unwarranted leaps, equivocations and false dilemmas. Why aren’t other Calvinists pointing this out? The number of fallacies committed in this one brief post today are staggering! What's even more staggering is that so few "Calvinists" can see it (those at the Reformation Theology blog obviously don't see it). It's either that or they don't want to point them out.
The theological and biblical ramifications on these subjects are quite profound. White’s warped thinking warps biblical passages, and such flawed and fanciful “reasoning” soon effects behavior and attitude. We should be fair with the plain testimony of scripture, as well as fair to our opponents. White lacks both of these Christ-like qualities in his post today, thus his eisegesis is seen.
The Results of the Atonement SeenThe Reformation Theology blog also posted it, obviously deeming it quality work.
And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. 10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth." (Rev. 5:9-10)One of the glorious truths of Scripture is that Jesus is not a hypothetical Savior, a mere wanna-be who fails with regularity. No, we proclaim a powerful Savior who perfectly does the will of the Father. His death did not make the purchase of men from every tribe, tongue, people and nation possible, it actually accomplished that which the Triune Majesty intended. Why so many long for an "atonement" that atones not I will never understand, but when they make reference to the extent of the atonement, point them to this text that defines what it means to speak of the "world" in a New Testament context.
My Response:
The Results of White's Systematic Eisegesis Seen
1) "One of the glorious truths of Scripture is that Jesus is not a hypothetical Savior, a mere wanna-be who fails with regularity."
In this first statement, White’s reactionary mentality is quickly seen. He describes the positions that differ from his own as positing a "hypothetical savior.” What’s the alternative? An actual savior? If so, who were actually saved when Christ died? Were all the elect saved when Christ died? If so, then we have salvation or justification prior to faith. If, on the other hand, Christ’s death does not save the elect when he died, does it therefore follow that it’s merely hypothetical? Of course not. Christ’s death saves when sinners appropriate it by faith. As Calvin said, "And the first thing to be attended to is, that so long as we are without Christ and separated from him, nothing which he suffered and did for the salvation of the human race is of the least benefit to us."
The Arminian error consists in thinking that man has the moral ability to believe, and thus Christ has no special, effectual and unconditional (unconditional in the sense of non-meritorious) intention to save the elect as the Calvinists think. One does not have to posit an exclusive intent in Christ to save the elect alone in order to refute the Arminian error.
Moderate Calvinists maintain that God has both a secret and revealed aspect to his will. While it is true that God wants all human beings to obey the external call in that he calls all to repent (the revealed or preceptive will), it does not follow that he has determined in his decree to grant moral ability to all men (the secret or decretal will). He does not owe mankind this ability. The Arminians, in their rationalistic error, see the revealed will as the only real will of God. James White, along with many other high Calvinists, collapse the revealed into the decretal such that the latter is the only real will. They think that the revealed will is merely dispositional and not an active principle that moves God to act to seek creaturely compliance. Thus, God only acts to seek the salvation of the elect alone in the high Calvinist system. This explains why White describes his opponents as holding that Christ is “a mere wanna-be savior who fails with regularity.” He thinks that the only real will involving active principles is the decretal.
2) "No, we proclaim a powerful Savior who perfectly does the will of the Father."
This statement demonstrates my point above, namely that he thinks the only real will of God is the decretal. He assumes that the Father cannot will that which does not come to pass. One might ask White, “Is it the will of the Father that you be thankful in all things according to 1 Thess. 5:18? If it is the will of God and he really desires your compliance to that commandment, then why are you not perfectly thankful in all things?” One does not have to deny a special, decretal intention in God as the non-Calvininsts do in order to see White’s systematic and biblical errors. God wills that we be thankful in all things and he actively seeks our compliance to that commandment according to the bible.
This is also the case with the commandment to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. God indescriminately commands all men to believe and repent through the external gospel call. Does he want all men to comply to the commandment or not? If he does not want all men to comply, then what does that entail with regard to the sincerity and goodness of God? Do we wish to implicitly charge the divine being with insincerity in his gospel appeals to all men? This is no small matter!
White denies that God in any sense wills the salvation of all mankind because he’s reacting to the Arminian position that God equally wills the salvation of all mankind. Calvin rightly maintained that God wills the salvation of all mankind (in the revealed will), but especially the elect (in the secret will). Dr. White is actually similar to the Arminians in his reactionary, rationalistic and lopsided thinking. Each party posits a rationalistic false dilemma, i.e. either the revealed will or the decretal will. Dr. White goes with the decretal as the real will and thus says the “Savior perfectly does the will (he identifies “will” with the decree) of the Father.”
3) "His death did not make the purchase of men from every tribe, tongue, people and nation possible, it actually accomplished that which the Triune Majesty intended."
This statement continues his lopsided system errors. He assumes that there would be disunity in the Godhead if it was the case that Christ intended to die for any other than the elect. The presupposition is that the other persons do not have a revealed or preceptive dimension to their will. Since the Father’s (and the Holy Spirit) real will is the decretal, the Son cannot will anything different. Dr. Curt Daniel addresses this argument in his History and Theology of Calvinism work. He wrote:
Then there is the argument from the Trinity. It is argued that if Christ died for all men equally, then there would be conflict within the Trinity. The Father chose only some and the Spirit regenerates only some, so how could the Son die for all men in general? Actually, this argument needs refinement. There are general and particular aspects about the work of each member of the Trinity. The Father loves all men as creatures, but gives special love only to the elect. The Spirit calls all men, but efficaciously calls only the elect. Similarly, the Son died for all men, but died in a special manner for the elect. We must keep the balance with each of these. If, on the one hand, we believe only in a strictly Limited Atonement, then we can easily back into a strictly particular work of the Father and the Spirit. The result is Hyper-Calvinism, rejecting both Common Grace and the universal Free Offer of the Gospel. On the other hand, if the atonement is strictly universal, then there would be disparity. The tendency would be towards Arminianism – the result would be to reject election and the special calling of the Spirit.Curt Daniel, The History and Theology of Calvinism (Springfield, IL: Good Books, 2003), 371.
Also, what did Christ’s death “accomplish”? He doesn’t say. Were all the elect saved when he died? If not, were they potentially saved? What would White say about the elect’s relationship to the death of Christ prior to their faith? I don’t know. Apparently he doesn’t agree with (or hasn’t read?) Charles Hodge who said, “Those for whom it was specially rendered are not justified from eternity; they are not born in a justified state; they are by nature, or birth, the children of wrath even as others. To be the children of wrath is to be justly exposed to divine wrath. They remain in this state of exposure until they believe, and should they die (unless in infancy) before they believe they would inevitably perish notwithstanding the satisfaction made for their sins.”
As for the false dilemma between a “possible” atonement and White’s alternative strict view, see my post here:
The Design of the Atonement: Dealing with a Popular False Dilemma
He assumes that Christ’s death secures it’s own application because he has taken a literal interpretation of the purchase idea. Christ’s penal satisfaction is filtered through commercial or pecuniary debt payment categories. R. L. Dabney’s remarks are fitting here:
Satisfaction not Commercial.4) "Why so many long for an 'atonement' that atones not I will never understand, but when they make reference to the extent of the atonement, point them to this text that defines what it means to speak of the 'world' in a New Testament context."
The Reformed divines are also accustomed to make a distinction between penal and moral satisfaction, on the one hand, and pecuniary payment, on the other. In a mere pecuniary debt, the claim is on the money owed, not on the person owing. The amount is numerically estimated. Hence, the surety, in making vicarious payment, must pay the exact number of coins due. And when he has done that, he has, ipso facto, satisfied the debt. His offer of such payment in full is a legal tender which leaves the creditor no discretion of assent or refusal. If he refuses, his claim is canceled for once and all. But the legal claim on us for obedience and penalty is personal. It regards not only the quid solvatur, but the quis solvat. The satisfaction of Christ is not idem facere; to do the identical thing required of the sinner, but satis facere; to do enough to be a just moral equivalent for what is due from the sinner. Hence, two consequences. Christ’s satisfaction cannot be forced on the divine Creditor as a legal tender; it does not free us ipso facto. And God, the Creditor, has an optional discretion to decline the proffer, if He chooses (before He is bound by His own covenant), or to accept it. Hence, the extent to which, and the terms on which Christ’s vicarious actions shall actually satisfy the law, depend simply on the stipulations made between Father and Son, in the covenant of redemption.
Here he collapses accomplishment into application, thus he fails to make a crucial biblical distinction. Atonement occurs when the satisfaction of Christ is appropriated by faith. The passage in the book of Revelation is clearly speaking of the believing elect who are in real union, and not of the elect as merely elect. This is a common equivocation fallacy in high Calvinist argumentation. White wants us to think this is an instance where world connotes “the elect.” First, the term “world” or “kosmos” is not even used in the passage. He simply imports it from his systematic grid (also borrowing bad arguments from Arthur Pink) and thinks he’s doing “exegesis.” Secondly, he wants us to think that Christ purchased all the elect as elect when he died. Does this passage say that? No. This passage says that Christ purchased believers from every tribe, tongue, people and nation. It does not say that he purchased all the elect as such at the time of this death. Also, even if it did say that he purchased all the elect as such, it still would not deductively follow that he purchased them alone according to this passage. One cannot deductively infer that he only dies for the elect from this bare positive idea that “he purchased the elect” any more than one can do that with statements about his dying for his sheep, church etc. R. L. Dabney makes this very point in his Systematic Theology text. Dabney wites, “That Christ says, He died "for His sheep," for "His Church," for "His friends," is not of itself conclusive. The proof of a proposition does not disprove its converse. All the force which we could properly attach to this class of passages is the probability arising from the frequent and emphatic repetition of this affirmative statement as to a definite object.” Also, White commits a straw man fallacy in thinking that his opponents "long for an atonement that does not atone." Actually, some of the authentic Calvinists who differ from him want to be faithful to the testimony of scripture and to proper reasoning.
If this passage defines what "world" means in the New Testament and the sense here is of believers, what does that make of sense of world in John 3:16? How would it look?
NKJ John 3:16 "For God so loved (believers) that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
This doesn't make any sense, thus White has to do a subtle shift and make "world" to mean elect as elect when it suits his system. He has to ignore a fundamental difference between decretal or mystical union and real union (he has committed this fallacy elsewhere). In fact, in John 17:9, he will follow Gill and the other ultra-Calvinists and interpret "world" to mean "the non-elect." Then, in John 17:21, "world" magically comes to mean "the elect as elect" again. How convenient, huh?
James White’s arguments are embarrassing and exegetically incompetent. It’s really sad to see someone with such influence in Calvinistic circles (particularly on the internet) make such blunders. Given the critique above, one can see the results of systematic eisegesis at work, not the work of genuine exegesis. Even apart from textual considerations, his logic is full of holes, unwarranted leaps, equivocations and false dilemmas. Why aren’t other Calvinists pointing this out? The number of fallacies committed in this one brief post today are staggering! What's even more staggering is that so few "Calvinists" can see it (those at the Reformation Theology blog obviously don't see it). It's either that or they don't want to point them out.
The theological and biblical ramifications on these subjects are quite profound. White’s warped thinking warps biblical passages, and such flawed and fanciful “reasoning” soon effects behavior and attitude. We should be fair with the plain testimony of scripture, as well as fair to our opponents. White lacks both of these Christ-like qualities in his post today, thus his eisegesis is seen.
17 comments:
Hi Dr. White,
Thanks for the correction with regard to the spelling of "eisegesis." I've made the necessary corrections in the post (but not in the title so that the links stay the same). Apparently, this mistake is common :-) I've seen the term spelled both ways. This is probably not the only spelling or grammatical error in my text. However, I am more interested in people dealing with my ideas, but I am open to correction on my spelling errors etc.
I realize that you do not hold to eternal justification, but some of your arguments logically entail that position, particularly the double jeopardy argument that so many high Calvinists use. R. L. Dabney and Charles Hodge both bring out that point in their systematic theology texts. I also realize that you don't deny the distinction between the preceptive and decretal will of God. However, in your view, is the revealed or preceptive will of God an active principle? Or is it merely some inactive dispositional quality? I mean, does God want all men to repent and be saved, even if they are the non-elect? Or is it the case that God just delights in such a thing as repentance, but not that he wants the non-elect to repent and be saved? It seems to me that the bible teaches that God wills the salvation of all mankind in the revealed will of God. That's classical Calvinism. So, once again, I do not say that you deny the distinction between the preceptive and decretal will of God. I just suspect that your distinction is without a difference.
Since you take a decretal reading of every controversial Calvinist passage, it seems that your "prescriptive" will view has collapsed into the decretal. Would you affirm that God wants the non-elect to comply with his commandment to repent and be saved? If so, do the non-elect have a sufficient provision in Christ to be saved? Is Christ's death really sufficient for all mankind? I am not asking if his death could have been sufficient for all had God so intended. I am asking if Christ, according to your view, suffered sufficiently for all? The idea that Christ suffered sufficiently for all is also classical Calvinism.
As to personal shots, what are you referring to? I take shots at your reasoning processes and your high Calvinist theological perspective. Isn't that fair game? If there is something wrong with that, then why take "personal shots" at me and say that I've made blunders and have my nose in theological books etc.? I don't take your comments as personal shots, so why take mine as such? You think my arguments are bad and I think yours are bad as well. Let's deal with the logic and analysis and move on. I don't own a cat and probably never will. I would rather have a dog, particularly a dog that always agrees with me, like Phil Johnson's dog does with him :-)
You say that I went after you for referring that Christ perfectly does the will of the Father. No, actually I didn't. What I went after was your presupposition that the Father virtually has only a decretal will. If you thought that the Father had a revealed aspect to his will, then what's the problem with thinking that each person in the Godhead want even the non-elect to comply with their commandments, even to believe and be saved? That's my point. God wills the salvation of all men, but especially the elect. That's the true position, not that God only wills the salvation of the elect. The latter view is high Calvinism and not classical Calvinism.
As a Calvinist, I understand the decretal dimension of John 6:38-39. I'm not an Arminian Dr. White. That should have been clear in my response. In contrast to you, I would say that the "will of Him" who sent" Christ also includes the revealed will that all men be saved by a righteous means, namely by the death of Christ. In fact, John 6:32 conveys this very idea. Also, John 6:38-39 does not negate the truth of John 3:16. Calvin knew this, so did R. L. Dabney.
Mr. Byrne,
The reason other "Calvinists" aren't pointing out the supposed "errors" you see in Dr. White's exegesis is because they have a better understanding of the subject being dealt with. Any impartial reader can see that you are needlessly attacking Dr. White. Do you call that being fair to your opponents? Take the beam out of your own eye before you take the speck out of your brother's eye. If you must refute a position, do so graciously. Would you like me to refute something you've written by referring to your "warped thinking" or your "fanciful reasoning"? If your argument is so strong why not let it stand on it's own Biblical footing? I think we all know the answer.
--Jon Unyan
Hi Jon,
I think the impartial reader can see that I have not engaged in ad hominem argumentation. Calling Dr. White's reasoning processes on the above Calvinistic matters "warped" and "fanciful" is not a personal attack. It's a description of his erroneous logic. If either of you think my logic and exegesis is bad, then it follows that you think it is warped. Any thinking that fails to treat the word of God fairly and accurately is, to some degree, warped. Also, to make subtle conceptual shifts with regard to the term "world" is indeed fanciful. High Calvinists have to make "world" connote either the elect strictly or the non-elect to sustain a cherished system. It is not a position that is arrived at exegetically.
If you, Jon, have a better understanding of Calvinism, then set forth your case. Let me see your superior conclusions so that I may be corrected.
I just posted this on my blog, but it is worth pasting in this comment thread as well:
The Difference Between "P is Q" and "P entails Q"
"In polemical writings, a straw man accusation is often made. One person, let’s call him Bilbo, holds some position (P). His opponent, Frodo, attempts to use a reductio ad absurdum argument and says that “Bilbo's position P entails position Q (some absurd conclusion).” It’s possible for Bilbo to misrepresent (to straw man) Frodo's claim, as if Frodo is claiming “Bilbo says P is Q.” That’s actually a straw man fallacy on Bilbo’s part. Frodo is actually claiming that Bilbo’s position P logically entails Q, not that Bilbo actually holds to position Q. Bilbo is actually committing a straw man fallacy when he says that Frodo is committing a straw man fallacy. It’s possible for people to straw man a reductio ad absurdum argument. Beware :-)
Bilbo should respond by showing how P does not entail Q, rather than claiming that "Frodo says Bilbo believes Q."
I am hoping you will call into the Dividing Line to discuss these matters with Dr. James White. He is really very nice and concersational on the air, so you might enjoy chatting with him. I think it would be edifying for all who hear.
Will you please let me and your readers know how we can avoid a subtle shift in making "decretal" to mean "preceptive" when it suits our system? (whatever system we may hold to) If James White is so proned to such error, and you, I presume are not, then I would like to know how you do it.
Thanks for you article, and your time,
Blessings to you in Christ,
Kerry
Since many people (probably most are Calvinists) are visiting this page as a result of the link on James White's site, let me post this quote by James Ussher:
"Neither is there hope that the Arminians will be drawn to acknowledge the error of their position, as long as they are persuaded the contrary opinion cannot be maintained without admitting that an untruth must be believed, even by the commandment of him that is God of truth, and by the direction of that word, which is the word of truth." - James Ussher
Hi Kerry,
Rather than posting a long message to you in reply, I would like to refer you to R. L. Dabney's work wherein he discusses the will of God and his sincerity:
God's Indiscriminate Proposals of Mercy
My audio recording of it is here:
Dabney in Audio
R. L. Dabney, as a solid Calvinist, does a good job in addressing the high or strict Calvinist errors regarding the will of God. Also, I posted some material by John Frame and others here:
John Frame on the Will of God
Dabney and Other Theologians on Volitional Complexity
St. Prosper on the Will of God
Decretalizing the Preceptive Will?
Here are a few more posts where I discuss certain ideas that Dr. White maintains:
Matthew 23:37 Calvinistically Considered
Galatians 2:20 and Real Union
So I take it you *WON'T* be calling in to the Dividing Line then?
Mr Byrne,
If I may follow up with a brief comment, the language you used was loaded and unnecessary. The tone of it was denegrating to Dr. White's character. Is he not a Christian trying to defend a position he believes to be Biblical? He may be wrong, you may be right, but your disposition toward him was not brotherly or gracious. That's the problem I have. I have disagreed with several Christians about theology, but I don't make them out to be imbeciles. You can refute the position without saying his arguments are embarrassing and exegetically incompetent, what impression of him do you think that language creates? You know this, anyone who reads your post knows this, so please don't defend this practice. Christian argumentation should be accompanied by humility and a gracious spirit, see Iain Murray for an example of this. It is a sign of Christian maturity, and that is irrefutable. Thank you for your time.....
--Jon Unyan
Thanks so much for the links. They have kept me busy reading!!
I am still confused, so maybe you can help.
I am still trying to figure out how to avoid a subtle shift in making "decretal" to mean "preceptive" when it suits my system.
The problem is (even though the links are pretty comprehensive), I can not figure out how to avoid a subtle shift in making decretive determinations to mean preceptive determinations, without utilizing a theological presupposition beforehand--like for example Calvinism; even something called "high Calvinism." How can I figure out how to avoid a subtle shift in making "decretal" to mean "preceptive" when it suits my system without utilizing theological presuppositions beforehand?
Also, (and this should really help the most) how can I do this based upon pure exegesis of the text? Does pure exegesis of the text demonstrate how to figure out how to avoid a subtle shift in making a decretal to mean a preceptive? If so, can you please direct me to those texts.
Thanks again for your insights and your time,
Blessings to you in Christ,
Kerry
I should have included this link awile back as well:
Double Jeopardy?
It includes many quotations by Calvinistic men who are critical of the double jeopardy argument. It's well worth reading.
If anyone wishes to send me an email in order to dialogue further, feel free to send it to
ynot_tony.geo@yahoo.com
This information, as well as a Table of Contents to my blog, is included on the upper right side of the main blog page.
To Nyred:
When Dr. White's radio show was starting, I was getting ready to leave for work. I work evenings at UPS.
To James White and the anonymous commenters:
A public apology from me for some of my words will soon be forthcoming.
To Kerry:
Since you are asking good questions that will involve extensive answers, perhaps it would be best if we spoke via email (ynot_tony.geo@yahoo.com). As I'm sure you know, none of us comes to the sacred text in an epistemically neutral fashion. We're all reading through certain filters and grids (worldviews or conceptual systems). We need to be become epistemologically self-aware and continually test our preconcieved notions.
With regard to the subtle shifts that can take place regarding our understanding of God's will, we should pause when it seems we are straining the language of scripture. I gave some examples regarding the term "world" in my argument above. It seems to me that some Calvinists are straining the language to make the sense of various passages conformable to God's special decree concerning the elect. It's unnecessary for a Calvinist to do that. In fact, Calvin himself didn't do that. The only instance that I know of where he took "world" to mean elect AS BELIEVER (not elect as elect) is in 1 John 2:2. He was following Augustine in that regard. Personally, I think Dabney and Shedd are better on that passage. Calvin didn't strain the kosmos term. He was working with a pre-modern and pre-Protestant scholastic paradigm, and he was also a careful student of the church fathers.
The classic example that I give for textual straining is in John 17:9. The textual gymnastics that occur with regard to the "world" term among the narrow or strict Calvinists is amazing. As I said above, they take kosmos to mean the non-elect in verse 9. Then, in verse 21 and 23, kosmos means elect as elect. That was the thinking of Gill at least. Owen is strange. Owen takes the "believe" in verse 21 and "know" in verse 23 to have a different sense than a saving faith sense, thus keeping the sense of kosmos the same (non-elect). It's very bizarre. On top of that, the "giving" idea is reckoned to have occurred back in eternity rather than in time. I suspect (not that I know) that Dr. White takes the "giving" idea in John 6:39 and in John 17:9 to reference a giving back in eternity. I do not deny that there is an eternal promise TO GIVE back in eternity, I take the "giving" senses in these Johannine passages to reference things in history and during effectual calling. We are given to the Son when we believe by the power of the Spirit. This sense of giving concerns real union. Prior to real union, all the elect were promised to be given to the Son. Once a person takes the "givng" idea as referencing something that happened prior to history in the covenant of redemption, then that influences their interpretations dramatically. It is certainly the case that our historical giving is grounded in the eternal promise to give, but it's important to distinguish between the two in order to have a proper redemptive/historical view of the text in my opinion.
Incidently, if you were to ask me what "world" means, I would say that it either refences all existing lost humanity on the earth, or to their abode, i.e earth. "World" has morally dark connotations in Johannine literature. You would benefit greatly by reading Neil Chamber's Critical Examination of Owen's Death of Death for more on this issue.
Moving on, we need to be aware of possible false dilemmas in our thinking. Perhaps both the preceptive and decretal senses are in view in a particular text. Take the John 6:38 passage that Dr. White referenced. Must the "will" reference be seen in an either/or perspective? Dr. White acknowledged on his radio program that he took a decretal, or efficacious will sense in that verse. I don't know whether or not he would admit any inefficacious dimensions to the context as well. The Arminians tend to view it through revealed will sense, i.e. the Father wants all to come to Christ, but the ultimate efficacy is in the indifferent will of man. I am inclined to see BOTH a decretal AND a preceptive dimension in the context. Consider this passage:
NKJ John 6:32 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven.
Who are the "you" that the Father gave to, and what is the true bread that he gave to them?J. C. Ryle has an interesting take on this passage and the context. I offer it to you for consideration. I could make other observations in the context to bring this out, but that will have to wait for another time.
Kerry, please send me an email if you wish to continue this dialogue. I appreciate your important questions. Thanks.
I just posted this today on my blog:
An Apology to James White
I would like to apologize to Dr. James White for my lack of patience and grace towards him. In retrospect, I believe I allowed my theological concerns to be expressed in an aggressive and impatient way. Such speech is not befitting an ambassador of Christ. Of course I would like to explain why I spoke as I did and explain other things as well, but that might come across as excuse making at this point and distract from my desire to sincerely apologize to Dr. White in this post.
In future blog entries, I hope that I am able to express my theological and biblical concerns with grace and in Christ-like manner. I pray that I will be able to use this medium (and others) in a way more in tune with the kindness and humility of our Savior. Please pray for me in that regard. Thanks.
Grace and Peace to you,
Tony
Mr. Byrne,
It rejoiced my heart to read your last comments, brother. It is rare that this kind of grace is displayed on the theological blogosphere (it shouldn't be rare, but it is). You have earned my respect. May God bless you with every spiritual blessing in Christ Jesus. Have a blessed Lord's Day!
--Jon Unyan
Tony,
Does God accomplish all that He desires or do things happen that He did not foreordain? Does the counsel of the Lord stand forever or does man thwart the perfect will of God? Do things occur just as God intends and plan or is there a chance they will go awry?
Micah
Hi Micah,
You ask:
"Does God accomplish all that He desires or do things happen that He did not foreordain?"
Me:
Since I am a Calvinist, I affirm that God ordains whatsoever comes to pass. Also, as a Calvinist, I make the very biblical distinction between God's secret and revealed will. Sometimes it's called his decretal and preceptive will, and sometimes will of good please and will of sign. These distinctions are very old. So, when you ask if God accomplishes all that He desires, I wonder what you mean. Are you asking if God's decretal will is always accomplished? Sure it is. Are you asking if His desire that we keep his commandments is always accomplished? If so, then no. When we think of what God wants/wills/desires, we need to keep these distinctions in view. If we do away with God's decretal will by emphasizing the preceptive, then we run into Arminianism and Open View Theism errors. If we emphasize the decretal to the exclusion of the preceptive, then we run into hyper-Calvinistic blasphemy such that God doesn't want us to comply with his commandments. God still wants us to comply with his commandments when we do not.
Does the counsel of the Lord stand forever or does man thwart the perfect will of God?
Since the counsel of the Lord seems to suggest his overarching wise purpose and decree, then of course it stands forever and shall come to pass. Man can thwart and disobey God's preceptive will, but man cannot keep God's decress from coming to pass.
Do things occur just as God intends and plan or is there a chance they will go awry?
Once again, your asking about the will of God. Start looking at the revealed will in addition to the decretal. An exclusive focus on God's secret will can cause significant theological errors, even when one may not realize it. Do you see the bible as teaching that God "intends" for you to keep his commandments? Isn't he acting to seek your compliance, even when you in fact disobey? I see that in the bible. God's intentions are complex but perfectly unified. Since we cannot figure all of it out, the logical problem of evil gets complicated. If God only intends what comes to pass, then it seems like he only intends alot of evil things. We should see intentionality associated with his revealed will as well.
Please consider reading the following links:
God's Indescriminate Proposals of Mercy by R. L. Dabney
John Frame on the Will of God
Dabney and Other Theologians on Volitional Complexity in God
Since I am a Calvinist, I affirm that God ordains whatsoever comes to pass...
That's a pretty poor reason to do just about anything.
Jest off the cuff. Ain't goin' nowhere with it. ;-)
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